Group 2a small group interviews

Our conversations with alumnae Thelma (Tee) Englander Goldberg and Mary Lou Judd Carpenter, and alumna Ann (Gay) Chaffe Hartman's husband, Rick was an exciting discussion on a wide variety of topics. We discussed the Mount Holyoke community of the 1950's in addition to the world community of the 1950's. Our exchange focused on issues of race, politics, and religion at Mount Holyoke and in the larger society during the 1950's and currently. Some interesting themes that came out of this conversation included the notion of WWII as a definitive moment in their lives, the idea of being "unconscious" or not thinking about or being aware of issues that would later come to the forefront of societal discourse and the notion that their ideas and attitudes have changed throughout their lives. While Tee and Mary Lou provided an interesting perspective based on their experience as MHC students and as women, Rick brought some exciting insight to the discussion as a Dartmouth graduate, a male, and as the husband of a Mount Holyoke alumna. The following questions and answers are notes compiled during our conversation.

What motivated you to go to college, and Mount Holyoke in particular? In hindsight, would you have made the same decision for the same reasons?

Mary Lou- It was always presumed that she would go to college. She applied to only 2 colleges: Wellesley and MHC. Her mother, daughter (she went to another college and then transferred in because she wanted the same connection that her mother and grandmother had), and sister all went to MHC. It was an easy decision. Tee- She was expected to go to college. Her sister came to MHC for a year and then got married and left the college. Tee came from England and wanted the American college experience. She thought she'd go to Stamford for pre-med. Her father's reaction was that he didn't think women would be good in the medical field. Also, California was far away and they couldn't afford to send her home during the school year. She applied to Wellesley and MHC. The students at MHC defined her decision. The atmosphere was special. She was the first to graduate college in her family.
Rick- He had a summer job in a factory his junior year of high school. He knew he needed an education if he didn't want to work in factories all his life. His mother didn't go to college. She had been accepted to Wellesley but couldn't afford it because of the Depression. He believes that college friendships are key.

Was it expected?

Yes, it was expected that you would go to college, high school encouraged it.
Mary Lou- Grandparents graduated from college as well.

What do you perceive to be the biggest difference between the Mount Holyoke you attended and the Mount Holyoke you see today?

Mary Lou- It is enormously different. There was 1 black student and a few foreign students. There is a major difference and she's grateful that it has changed. She lived in China as a child. Her parents were missionaries. The idea of the world is more apparent now.
Tee- She always thought that it was unimportant- it doesn't matter where people come from. She is Jewish. The 1st real diversification for her was at a Jewish holiday- there were holiday dinners around campus. She is a religion major. She wished to know about other people's experiences.
Rick- There was a homogeneous society in the 50's. You could count the number of black people on one hand. There's a striking difference. Now it's heterogeneous. There's diversity. There was an integration of the races after graduation. Today it's the individual entities that are separating us. The thing that is important now is independent expression.

Was there a desire for integration?

Tee- She was the different one. She came from another country and had already traveled. Her desire was to open the world even wider.
Mary Lou- It was a time when Asians were not allowed to come into the USA. She had been grounded in integration- her father was a medical missionary in China for 10 years. She already believed that we're all the same.
Tee- Everyone was unconscious about it.
Rick- They were bred through high school and church years. His heritage motivated his thinking. He went to public high school- it was much more diverse. And then he went to Dartmouth. Presently, his Dartmouth classmates are turned off by the college because it's not what it was when they went there. They're unable to accept the change.
Mary Lou- The education in public education was so destructive. Her mother was the president of the first integrated Y in Washington. There were some people who didn't want to overcome the differences.

How many women were practicing their faith while at Mount Holyoke?

Tee- She doesn't recall noticing there were groups of different religious women. Her last name didn't give away that she was Jewish. It wasn't an issue. She wanted to learn more about people around her. What could be more of an example of a liberal arts education than religion? Her father was confused about what she was going to do with her major. There were 6 religion majors in her class. They had major exams. As religious majors, 3 months out of the year they practiced a different religion and went into local people's home. It opened up the entire world for her. She realizes she had a different experience than others- traveling first class back and forth to England to visit. She had a different perspective than others. They used to have to go to Springfield to go to the movies. If you were on the Deans list for 6 weeks you could have a car. There was a teacher that changed her life- she took an exam in religion on the bible and then went to the movies with some friends. Talking with them, she realized that she had answered the question completely different from everyone else so she was sure she failed. When she got back from the movies, there was a message from her professor telling her to call him up until 11pm- he said he thought that she might think that she failed but not to worry.
Mary Lou- The practicing Catholics had to go off campus to go to mass. She thinks there were more Jewish students. Attending chapel was a requirement for the entire student body. They couldn't really go away on Saturday night because of chapel. They needed written permission to be away.
Tee- They had to go to chapel 7 times. They never had a Jewish rabbi. She used to sing in the choir. Finally, she says, there are more religions. She couldn't get married in that chapel because she's Jewish and they wouldn't allow her to.
Mary Lou- There was a cross up in the chapel. "How limited the diversity was."
Tee- She wanted to get married at the Harvard memorial church but they wouldn't remove their cross. She wrote a letter to the NY times.
Mary Lou- They were "good girls". They were unconscious.
Tee- They were taught to be good.
Mary Lou- During 2nd WW, the women were experiencing success beyond home when the men were at war. When the men came back the idea that women stay home and keep their mouth shut returned. She married one of those men. A book opened her mind to the closed system they bought into. " It knocked her socks off" Tee- Her husband was a professor at Harvard Business school and she helped him. It was expected that the wives accompanied husbands to the dinners. But the women had opinions and spoke up. It was easier for her than for the others. They took everything for granted, like we all do today.
Mary Lou- She married badly. Her expectations were what the culture had given her. She had a low expectation for herself. Even though no one ever said that she couldn't do anything. At one point, after she had her first child which was a boy, she was pregnant with her second child and hoped that she didn't have a daughter-She didn't want another women to go through what she went through.
Rick- He believes he was molded by WWII. Reinforced feelings of uniformity- not of diversity and not a time of speaking out. Historical events shaped and defined them, such as the Depression. It was so engrained in his psyche. Horror of the war. It bred a population that craved homogeneity. He was happy to get through it all. Tee- Stability. Where did the change happen? There was the Depression, and then the 60's and drugs.
Rick- We watched it around us. The Vietnam War, being a failure, ruptured the change. Our country had never failed before. We screwed up. It motivated people to not sit by anymore.
Mary Lou- People of the old system weren't going to lead. People who were hurt by those structures were going to lead the change. It requires an over correction, one that's brutal and painful, and disruptive in order to get back to the middle.

Did your college experience give you a unique and privileged outlook?

Mary Lou- Her perspective was not typical. It was privileged. Not harmed.
Tee- WWII had more of an impact on her- it disrupted her family life. By the 60's she married and had children and was living in the academic system. She was educated and privileged.

How have your political opinions changed since you were at Mount Holyoke? Do you feel MHC had anything to do with this?

Mary Lou- Her father was a US congressman for 20 years. "When it was a respected position". She has lost confidence in the political system. No longer believes that this system works for the greater good. Because of the media- going into people's lives. She's cynical.
Tee- She didn't get into politics until late in life. She wouldn't just sit around talking about politics. She is a British citizen. Now has a dual citizenship. There was a realization for her about who made decisions in the US. She believes that everything was downhill after JFK. She has been very discouraged. Our leaders are far from someone to look up to.
Rick- When he looks around at the world, he thinks we have the best system. He thinks we have become more liberal. He grew up in a republican environment. In respect to the current administration- he can become cynical. But he wouldn't trade it for another system. At Dartmouth, they used to bring a world political figure on campus. It was for a current events course. It was his senior year at Dartmouth. It made them a lot more politically aware. There's a difference from then and now- there was a unification from WWII and now we are scattered.